My dumb idea that involves a 12 gauge

[letusbuyyourcar]

Take one of these
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Add a $200 tax stamp to make it an AOW. Then add one of these
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Chop the bit of barrel down that extends past the magazine tube, clean it up, dab a little cold blue on it, then move that bead back onto the barrel.

Then add a sling of some kind that attaches to the bottom of the Hogue grip and the end of the magazine tube. To shoot the gun, press forward on both the forend and the pistol grip with the sling offering resistance. That way when you fire the gun you're already pushing forward to counteract the recoil.

Thoughts?

I may be wrong here but I don't think the sling swivel on the bottom of this grip is the spot where you want it to be for the intended use. I think it would need one of the plates that goes between the receiver and the grip with the swivel mounted on the side. That way the sling is in more of a straight line back toward the shooter.

 

[letusbuyyourcar]

It won't and it won't be. I tried the same thing with an AK pistol. While it did make it more controllable, it still wasn't the same thing as shooting a stocked rifle. Which is why I eventually made that pistol into an SBR.

For the life of me, I'll never understand a rounds-limited shotgun as anything other than a movie tough guy gun. Those Serbu Super Shorties sure do look cool, but three rounds? Really? Hard pass.

Yeah I don't get the appeal of the Serbu either. It has like a 2 round tube doesn't it? For my money (if I had the NFA money) game I would cut down an old Stevens side by side. Cause THAT is my ideal movie bad guy gun.

 

[Shotgun Surgery]

It won't and it won't be. I tried the same thing with an AK pistol. While it did make it more controllable, it still wasn't the same thing as shooting a stocked rifle. Which is why I eventually made that pistol into an SBR.

For the life of me, I'll never understand a rounds-limited shotgun as anything other than a movie tough guy gun. Those Serbu Super Shorties sure do look cool, but three rounds? Really? Hard pass.

I'd hold this shotgun to much lower standards of accuracy than a rifle, given the intended use. If I could consistently hit a torso sized target at 10-20 yards then I'd be happy with the performance. Honestly, there's no reason not to expect that; the real issue is whether or not the technique I'm envisioning would allow the shotgun to easily be shot without a corresponding trip to an orthodontist.

Also, rounds limited? There are plenty of 870 shotguns in typical full-stocked configurations that are 4+1; that's a fairly standard capacity. This gun would retain that 4+1 capacity.

Finally, I think it's important to compare the tool to the task and hand and to other tools made to deal with that same task. I wouldn't bother comparing something like a Serbu Super Shorty to a full size shotgun or rifle because that's apples to oranges. Guns like the Serbu Super Shorty are meant for concealment, so you'd be better off comparing those guns to other concealable guns like pistols, at which point the 2+1 or 3+1 capacity of 12 gauge compares favorably to any capacity from a typical pistol.

 

[Shotgun Surgery]

I may be wrong here but I don't think the sling swivel on the bottom of this grip is the spot where you want it to be for the intended use. I think it would need one of the plates that goes between the receiver and the grip with the swivel mounted on the side. That way the sling is in more of a straight line back toward the shooter.

That's certainly a possibility, and as far as the sling goes I don't think I'll have much of any idea of what works and what doesn't until I have the gun in my hands to try it out. The Hogue grip offers 2 options for slings, and what you've mentioned is a third that I can now also consider. Thanks for the information.The Hogue grip allows a sling near the top of the pistol grip and it can also accept a sling swivel at the bottom of the grip. Now I can consider also putting on one of those plates you mentioned.

The real question I want to find out is whether or not I'll end up going with a 2 point configuration with the sling attaching to the end of the magazine tube and somewhere near the pistol grip, or if I'd end up doing a 1 point configuration attaching just to the pistol grip.

 

[Ken Ford]

I'd hold this shotgun to much lower standards of accuracy than a rifle, given the intended use. If I could consistently hit a torso sized target at 10-20 yards then I'd be happy with the performance. Honestly, there's no reason not to expect that; the real issue is whether or not the technique I'm envisioning would allow the shotgun to easily be shot without a corresponding trip to an orthodontist.

Also, rounds limited? There are plenty of 870 shotguns in typical full-stocked configurations that are 4+1; that's a fairly standard capacity. This gun would retain that 4+1 capacity.

Finally, I think it's important to compare the tool to the task and hand and to other tools made to deal with that same task. I wouldn't bother comparing something like a Serbu Super Shorty to a full size shotgun or rifle because that's apples to oranges. Guns like the Serbu Super Shorty are meant for concealment, so you'd be better off comparing those guns to other concealable guns like pistols, at which point the 2+1 or 3+1 capacity of 12 gauge compares favorably to any capacity from a typical pistol.

I’ve seen this type of set up used with an MP5. But that weapon has almost no recoil and is very manageable.

 

[rOmiLaYu]

I'd hold this shotgun to much lower standards of accuracy than a rifle, given the intended use. If I could consistently hit a torso sized target at 10-20 yards then I'd be happy with the performance. Honestly, there's no reason not to expect that; the real issue is whether or not the technique I'm envisioning would allow the shotgun to easily be shot without a corresponding trip to an orthodontist.

I think that you're going to have a difficult time regaining any sort of sight picture. And by the time your wad is 10-20 yds out, the spread is going to be so wide as to almost guarantee you'll hit something, regardless of your aim.

Also, rounds limited? There are plenty of 870 shotguns in typical full-stocked configurations that are 4+1; that's a fairly standard capacity. This gun would retain that 4+1 capacity.

That is correct. A shotgun is, almost by definition, a rounds-limited platform.

Finally, I think it's important to compare the tool to the task and hand and to other tools made to deal with that same task. I wouldn't bother comparing something like a Serbu Super Shorty to a full size shotgun or rifle because that's apples to oranges. Guns like the Serbu Super Shorty are meant for concealment, so you'd be better off comparing those guns to other concealable guns like pistols, at which point the 2+1 or 3+1 capacity of 12 gauge compares favorably to any capacity from a typical pistol.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. If the argument in favor of the SSS is simple concealability, it fails on many levels, the least of which is its inherent inability to be fired and cycled with one hand.

 

[rOmiLaYu]

I’ve seen this type of set up used with an MP5. But that weapon has almost no recoil and is very manageable.

Perhaps on single shot or burst...but an MP5 at full send is a ceiling bound sewing machine if you aren't really on top of it....and that's with a stock. I can't imagine it with a single point sling for tension. It would be bouncing all over the place.

 

[letusbuyyourcar]

That's certainly a possibility, and as far as the sling goes I don't think I'll have much of any idea of what works and what doesn't until I have the gun in my hands to try it out. The Hogue grip offers 2 options for slings, and what you've mentioned is a third that I can now also consider. Thanks for the information.The Hogue grip allows a sling near the top of the pistol grip and it can also accept a sling swivel at the bottom of the grip. Now I can consider also putting on one of those plates you mentioned.

The real question I want to find out is whether or not I'll end up going with a 2 point configuration with the sling attaching to the end of the magazine tube and somewhere near the pistol grip, or if I'd end up doing a 1 point configuration attaching just to the pistol grip.

On something that short I can't imagine using anything but a single point sling even though I ain't a fan of them. But I still think wherever the sling swivel is it needs to be in line with the back end of the receiver . The plates I mentioned can be had from GG&G which makes tons of accessories for 870s and 500s. A little pricey but good quality. Although that still puts the sling on either the left or right side depending on which one you buy. The best setup MIGHT be IF you can find the bolt that mounts the pistol grip with the swivel on the end of it. I've seen a few Mossberg factory grips like on eBay with the swivel stud on it up near the top.
Short answer is it's most likely gonna take a lot of experimenting to find what works best.

 

[Shotgun Surgery]

I’ve seen this type of set up used with an MP5. But that weapon has almost no recoil and is very manageable.

Yep. That's where I got the idea for this. I've heard on the MP5 sling techniques they typically use a bungie style sling. The stretchiness probably helps for full-auto fire. I think in my situation I'd be better off with a sling that has no stretch so I can put significantly more forward force to counteract the recoil. Since I'd be firing only one shot at a time anyways I don't think it would be an issue.

 

[Shotgun Surgery]

I think that you're going to have a difficult time regaining any sort of sight picture. And by the time your wad is 10-20 yds out, the spread is going to be so wide as to almost guarantee you'll hit something, regardless of your aim.


That is correct. A shotgun is, almost by definition, a rounds-limited platform.


I couldn't disagree more strongly. If the argument in favor of the SSS is simple concealability, it fails on many levels, the least of which is its inherent inability to be fired and cycled with one hand.

For an autoloading gun, regaining the sight picture quickly inbetween shots would certainly be an issue. However, this is a pump gun. After each shot I'm going to have to pump the gun anyways which will itself disturb the sight picture. I think the technique would be push and shoot then pump, push and shoot then pump, etc.

Also, if you're considering even 4+1 to be rounds limited then are you just arguing against shotguns in general rather than this specific concept I'm presenting? I'd be weary of getting too focused on numbers on paper. Compare 10 chickens and 2 semi-trucks. 10 is 5 times bigger than 2, but 2 semi-trucks is a lot more mass than 10 chickens. 5 shells of 12 gauge may numerically be fewer rounds than other conventional firearms, but those 5 shots being 12 gauge means it's a lot of firepower. I've heard it said that a shotgun which holds 5 shells is a 5 badguy gun. Unlike rifles and especially pistols, if you get a shot of 12 gauge buck or slugs on someone's torso at close range then they're almost certainly out of the fight if not dead on the spot. Compare that to a 9mm where maybe you take someone out in one shot, or maybe you don't take them out even after 30 shots.

People can and have concealed shockwave-style firearms to great effect before. I've heard that a shotgun in basically what is today considered the shockwave-format was once used by Witness Protection. I've heard rumors of air-marshals having a similar experience. So long as you have some way to actually conceal the shotgun and you have the technique down to aim it accurately at close distances then you're much more armed with a small shotgun than a pistol. If I found myself in a situation where I needed to defend myself from someone at close range and I could either have a pistol magically appear in my hands or one of these small shotguns appear in my hands then I'd certainly rather have the shotgun.