My dumb idea that involves a 12 gauge

[41mag]

Ah, he's probably a nice guy......

I’m betting so too !

 

[joeldworkin307]

So you wanna MP5K a 12 gauge? Cool

 

[Talos]

Personally, I've never liked non-stocked shotguns. Not comfortable to hold like a pistol or shoot from the hip and I like to aim what I'm shooting at. Now, a super shorty with a stock? That's the way to go. And don't go with a folding stock either, those hurt like hell.

 

[steviesterno]

Before anything else, thanks for all of the info and taking the time to type all of that up. I really do appreciate it. That being said, I can't help but continue talking shotguns with you happy to. I'll reply in here for clarity sake

"Well remember the application to make an AOW is $200 same as SBS but then you can never put a stock on it. Transfer existing is $5."

I knew about making an AOW being the same $200 as making an SBS. I know that I could stamp the gun as a SBS instead of an AOW then be able to switch between the pistol grip and a stock at a whim whereas stamping it as an AOW would limit it to not having a stock ever. However, there is one big advantage making it an AOW has that having an SBS doesn't, and that's the complete lack of any legal requirement to inform the ATF if I bring the gun across state lines. If I brought a SBS across state lines without asking the ATF for permission then ended up having to use it that would be technically illegal, whereas if I make the gun an AOW all that would then matter is the different state's laws. Speaking of which, I've heard, so take this with a grain of salt, that many states don't have specific laws concerning AOWs. I'm betting there are some states where it would be illegal to carry around a loaded shotgun whereas there are no laws on the book for an AOW nor any state law definition that would legally make an AOW into a shotgun in the state's eyes.

Good point, you clearly know about NFA. I wanted to spell it out a bit more for people just getting started. Often the idea of a $5 stamp is more appealing than the $200 but really either cost is pretty small in the grand scheme of things. The interstate travel thing is certainly up there. My understanding is that you can't cross a state line while it's configured in an NFA configuration. So potentially removing the barrel (or stock on an SBR/SBS) is fine for actually crossing the state line, but then you can reconfigure. I don't personally travel outside the state without much notice so I can file a "transportation" form with the NFA that's good for a year. and if I need to leave in a hurry with an NFA weapon I'm not super paperwork makes a difference in that case.

"Anything shorter than that and you have to do work to the mag tube, bars, forend, etc. I can’t do that work and it priced out to upwards of $1k all to lose capacity from where it is now."

Before deciding to go the route I'm on now that's what I was originally looking at. I wanted something like the Serbu Super Shorty or some equivalent shotgun. The only company I could find still making something to that effect is Paladin Armory which has an ancient web 1.0 website and they only accept payment via check or money order. Apparently they're legitimate, but going through all of that hassle doesn't seem worth it to me, not to mention I could do almost the same thing myself for much less cost than what they're charging. I also looked into trying to source the shorter magazine tube, barrel that would fit the magazine tube, slide action assembly, smaller forend that would fit the shorter slide action assembly, etc. I didn't do as much looking as I could have, but I did a pretty good bit and I couldn't find any such parts for sale. Getting a hold of such parts now seems like you'd have to make it yourself or hire a machinist/gunsmith to custom make the parts of to modify existing parts. yeah that's what sucks. I wanted a super shorty but they are tougher to find. Mossberg sold/sells a quasi version but they were like $1k and basically a 500 model. Remington sells an AOW: https://www.capitolarmory.com/remington-870p-mcs-police-breacher-12g-aow.html they also sell the kit (or at least used to) that had all the custom smaller parts, but last I saw a kit for sale it was like $1400 so again financially annoying.

One solace I can take from going the route I am now where I'd have the 4 round tube instead of something shorter is that it's the shortest the tube can be while still taking typical forends, so I'll have many of those options available (railed forends, wood corncob, ones with lights built inside, etc).

"“Cheaper” to get a SxS and stamp it. No action means you can cut it a lot shorter and have ~ the same capacity."

That was actually the plan I had before looking into guns like the Serbu Super Shorty/etc. It's not a terrible idea, but there were a few things that lead me to go down the route I have now. The first is that getting a good side by side shotgun that isn't junk would cost an arm and a leg, more than the entire gun project, stamp and all, that I'm planning now. The cheapest shotgun I was considering was one of the CZ double barrels, and even those go for something like $800. Not to mention, they're black-chrome'd instead of blued so I'm not sure what would be involved in refinishing the raw steel after those barrels would have been cut down.

The other thing, and this is almost inherent to cutting down a double barrel, is that it wouldn't be as much shorter than what I'm planning now as you'd think. Sure, you can chop the barrels to be even shorter (let's say 10" instead of 12.5" like I'm planning) and the action is shorter (another few inches), but unless you want to make a custom pistol-grip to fit your double barrel of choice then you're pretty much stuck using a bird's head type grip made from the stock you chopped down, and that adds a few inches of OAL vs. a pistol grip. A SXS SBS would still be shorter than my current route, sure, but not tremendously shorter. Then you'd be comparing 4+1 shells to simply 2. As much as every inch of OAL makes a big difference, going to 2x or 2.5x the capacity for just a few extra inches of OAL is still pretty big.
the easy option is to not really worry about how the cut down barrels look, and hit them with cold blue or some black paint. I bought a SxS for like $200 but this is a few years ago. I will file and do it next time I get a set of finger prints done, I haven't filed yet and I've had the damn gun for like 8 years already. It looks like I could do ~10" barrels and have the whole gun be ~16" overall, so shorter than the 870. I'd chop where the forend ends, which in the pic I posted puts it about to where the top folding stock ends on the 870 folded. You're right about capacity. a cut down SxS will never be more than 2 rounds while an 870 could be maybe 5-6 if you run the mini shells. I have mine short as a breacher and/or hotel room defense so don't see the need for more rounds as it wouldn't be primary. I also honestly did it because it's my first gun so I'm never selling it, I always wanted one, and why not. Sometimes that's reason enough.

That's not to mention that if my hypothetical shooting techniques works out then having a pistol grip as opposed to a bird's head grip would itself be an advantage in terms of recoil. I have a pistol grip on the way to put on my full-length 870 shotgun to start testing that technique. I have high hopes that it will make shooting the PGO gun realistically effective.

"a folding MCX or basic SBR AR will come in to the same length with literally 10x the rounds on deck."

Yeah, but they're also not a shotgun. 5.56 NATO can be a top-tier ballistic performer, but that's from a proper rifle-length barrel. The same is true for most other rifle chamberings. 12 gauge buck or slugs are going to be leaps and bounds more ballistically effective than your typical rifle chambering to start with, much less that rifle chambering from a super short barrel that would further compromise ballistics for most rifle chamberings. From what I've heard about 12 gauge, it performs pretty much the same no matter if you're shooting it from a 10" barrel to a 28" barrel or anything inbetween. that's correct. My SBRs are in 300BO. While not equivalent to 12 gauge it is on par with a 30-30 or 7.62x39 with good super sonic rounds. I like it because it's handy inside the house and still has enough ass to put energy into a target ~150+ yards away. short 556 is terrible. I am a 3gun shooter and spent more time with an AR than anything, despite growing up shooting 870s. I was in an active shooter situation last year and had my rattler set up for it, never felt undergunned and thankfully didn't need it, but I also have a wife and young kids. The manual of arms on an AR is easy to show them and they can all handle it better than a 12 gauge, too. Shotguns mess stuff up in a hurry for sure so I support it, but wouldn't personally want a PGO as my go-to.

I love the images of your little shotgun. There are two questions I was hoping to ask you about it. What is the overall length of your shotgun while the stock is folded? Also, have you looked into putting some kind of a bead or other sight on the end of its barrel? it's right about 24" OAL folded up, I can get more exact measurements for you if you want. Depends if you go inline with the bore or not. The rattler is 16" folded, and again 24 with a can attached direct thread, which is how it lives when not in a photo shoot. I had a different barrel on the 870, same length and put rifle length sights on it. Learned to soldier, everything. Shot a single slug and the front sight vanished into the wilderness. I have considered a bead or something but honestly it's just an across the room or S&G at the range gun for me, so don't really see the need for anything more substantial yet.

Thanks again.

you bet, good luck in your project and I hope you make something cool!

 

[Shotgun Surgery]

I’m just courteous, what kinds of scenario do you see yourself getting into that makes you feel this weapon would be your needed option?

If the shooting technique I'm imagining works out then it would be close to as shootable, if not as shootable, as a stocked shotgun. That would make it as effective as a typical shotgun in close range except smaller and handier, so it would be nice to have for any defensive situation in which you needed a shotgun.

On top of that, I want to see if there's some way to get it sling'd up that would both allow for the shooting technique I'm imagining and also let it conceal under a jacket or hoodie. If I can get something like that working then it could just be used as a concealed carry gun for giggles.

 

[fattboyzz]

 

[Gaffer1968]

I get what you're going for but I don't think it's worth the NFA hassle. On top of that I've shot pistol gripped shotguns and I have a Mossberg Shockwave. The straight line bird head style grip is better than the pistol grip to ME.

I've got a stock Mossberg Shockwave in 410. The only thing I'd like to modify on it is change over to all wood furniture - same configuration. The Shockwave fits into a kind of limited ATF category and any changes to the grip seems to me to pull it out of that category and potentially subjects you to NFA problems.

 

[Ken Ford]

If the shooting technique I'm imagining works out then it would be close to as shootable, if not as shootable, as a stocked shotgun. That would make it as effective as a typical shotgun in close range except smaller and handier, so it would be nice to have for any defensive situation in which you needed a shotgun.

On top of that, I want to see if there's some way to get it sling'd up that would both allow for the shooting technique I'm imagining and also let it conceal under a jacket or hoodie. If I can get something like that working then it could just be used as a concealed carry gun for giggles.

Cool thanks.

 

[rOmiLaYu]

If the shooting technique I'm imagining works out then it would be close to as shootable, if not as shootable, as a stocked shotgun.

It won't and it won't be. I tried the same thing with an AK pistol. While it did make it more controllable, it still wasn't the same thing as shooting a stocked rifle. Which is why I eventually made that pistol into an SBR.

For the life of me, I'll never understand a rounds-limited shotgun as anything other than a movie tough guy gun. Those Serbu Super Shorties sure do look cool, but three rounds? Really? Hard pass.

 

[letusbuyyourcar]

I've got a stock Mossberg Shockwave in 410. The only thing I'd like to modify on it is change over to all wood furniture - same configuration. The Shockwave fits into a kind of limited ATF category and any changes to the grip seems to me to pull it out of that category and potentially subjects you to NFA problems.

Yeah there WERE some braces available for the Shockwave but 1 they're ugly as hell, 2 we're now in that position where ATF went back on their word on braces. 3 it adds unwanted length to what was supposed to be a super short compact weapon.
But as for the wood furniture yeah I would like to get it for mine too. But that's way down my list at the moment.