SBR Form 1 and installation... Where to go?

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

To be fair, I've had this thread on my mind for the last few days. Please do NOT take anything I say as legal advice. I am NOT a lawyer, nor qualified to give legal advice. If you have a question about it, consult one. Or read the NFA handbook and the ATF code of regulations and decide for yourself. http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/

I will tell you that the last 20 years of precedent has been that you can handle other people's cans as long as it doesn't leave their presence.

 

[CaptMopar]

I am not a lawyer either, never claimed to be. I am just reporting what I have been told by lawyer friends of mine (my wife works with with attorneys everyday) and what I have researched and read on the internet on several different lawyer sites that specialize in NFA Trusts and other gun related issues. You are free to believe what you want and do what you want, but to advise people to do the same just because you do is dangerous in todays society.

 

[sovietak474u]

As along as you are present you can allow others to shoot your class 3 item. Look at knob creek. They let people shoot their class 3 items all the time. I'm sure they don't have joe blow on their trust either. Now if you left your class 3 item alone with them... Then yes that's illegal.

 

[CaptMopar]

LOL...you are arguing with someone that does this for a living and has probably done hundreds of them. How many Trusts have you done? 1? I am positive Quiet Riot is correct. Either that or every single Class 3 dealer I have spoken to is misinformed....you know since they will let anyone be a class 3 dealer and all

Not that I am saying they do not know what they are doing but as far as I have heard these gun stores are not lawyers or so schooled either correct? Might want to read this bearing in mind it came from the same site as the others...

More Invalid Gun Trusts being provided by Gun Stores

Today we received another copy of a Gun Store Generic NFA Trust that was provided to a customer of the shop. Not only was it a generic trust and did nothing to advise or protect the client from issues regarding the transfer, ownership, possession or use of TItle II firearms (sold by Class 3 dealers) but the trust itself was invalid as it did not comply with the requirements to create a valid trust in the State. While it may have been a valid trust in another state, each state has its own requirements for creating a valid trust. These requirements change and a trust that may have been valid a few years ago may not be valid under the current laws of the state. It is important to make sure your trust complies with the state's requirements for creation of a valid trust. What is disturbing is that ATF approved transfers to this invalid trust.
Remember just because ATF approves a transfer, the agency is not stating that your trust is valid nor that you are legally able to be in possession of the firearms. If you have a free trust or a gun shop trust it is important to have it reviewed for legality as well as compliance with the ATF to make sure your document is valid and that your document does not instruct you or others to break the law in regards to regular firearms or those restricted by the NFA.

 

[CaptMopar]

As along as you are present you can allow others to shoot your class 3 item. Look at knob creek. They let people shoot their class 3 items all the time. I'm sure they don't have joe blow on their trust either. Now if you left your class 3 item alone with them... Then yes that's illegal.

This post started out with me trying to get a SBR for my AR-15 with a NFA Trust. I have never been talking about Class III permits or renting one from a gun store. I don't know how this became the topic. I know nothing about the laws regarding permissions and useage of such nor do I care at this time. If and when I decide to go this route I will do my research and proceed the same way I did with this.

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

**EDITED by me because I'm grumpy****

Just read the regs. I posted them. I reference them daily.

Don't trust someone selling you something. That even includes me. Do your own research.

 

[batoncolle]

One thing you better know about trusts is that each state has different laws and/or requirements regarding how you setup a trust. I would not worry about what some random website says about a trust. Contact a local GA lawyer who has experience in setting up an NFA trust based on GA laws.

Regarding allowing someone to handle your NFA item while in your presence, this has always been a murky area. I think this guy's advice is sound, and you can find several quotes of him online explaining the concept. The simple fact of the matter is to use your own best judgement.


"Very likely not a problem at all. Always think of the three C's when determining possession: care, custody and control. If you do not have all of them, you do not have possession. IANAL...

Jeff Folloder
NFATCA Executive Director
www.nfatca.org"

 

[CaptMopar]

One thing you better know about trusts is that each state has different laws and/or requirements regarding how you setup a trust. I would not worry about what some random website says about a trust. Contact a local GA lawyer who has experience in setting up an NFA trust based on GA laws.

Regarding allowing someone to handle your NFA item while in your presence, this has always been a murky area. I think this guy's advice is sound, and you can find several quotes of him online explaining the concept. The simple fact of the matter is to use your own best judgement.


"Very likely not a problem at all. Always think of the three C's when determining possession: care, custody and control. If you do not have all of them, you do not have possession. IANAL...

Jeff Folloder
NFATCA Executive Director
www.nfatca.org"

Thanks for posting this! I agree!

To be very clear I was simply trying to make sure I had my ducks in a row when it comes to anything where the BATFE is involved. Why would you take a chance and not seek the advise of a lawyer or someoe skilled at this? Once again, and to be very clear, whomever can do whatever they want to and that is fine with me. Where I have a problem is when I ask a valid question and good meaning people post things that they are not sure of, is in a grey area, sounds misleading or simply is just not the case. I have been posting what I have found on the iternet with regards to the answers and rants given to my question, thus "checking it out" as it was suggested I do. So far I have not found one thing online from anyone reputable or a lawyer that advises that what these NFA Trust lawyers that charge for thier service have on thier websites is not true, period. Granted they are charging for thier service and that is nothing out of the ordinary. I assume that the dealer mentioned in here does not do these for free either, correct? Heck I paid almost $75 now for the program and have spent countless hours researching this topic and still have some questions albeit not the same ones I had before. Hindsight being 20/20, I would have gladly paid a lawyer the $300 to save me this aggravation and lambasting. But all in all it has been a good learning experience for me. Do I feel confident I have my NFA Trust set up right? Yes. Do I feel I have my SBR Form 1 filled out correctly? Yes. Do I feel like I could represent myself in the court system if something goes wrong with either? NO! Would I expect a gun store owner to represent me? NO! Gunstore owners and FFL holders are not educated in the legal system, they are dealers. Much like I would not expect a lawyer to advise me on my firearm I would not expect anyone (myself included) other than a lawyer to advise me on a legal issue. I hope I have made myslef crystal clear on this issue. As the member that started this post I feel the responsibility is mine to keep it on topic and factual. Nuff said... I hope.