SBR Form 1 and installation... Where to go?

[CaptMopar]

I never setup a bank account, I just put that the trust had $200 dollars in it. I sent a personal check and both of the ones I've sent in have been approved.

You are correct you don't actually have to set up a bank account. I just like everything looking official. My checks that I send to the BATFE will have the name of the trust on them, waiting for them to arrive. If I decide to sell the gun at somepoint I need an account to deposit the funds from the sale into as well. Its a good idea in my opinion to have an account set up in case they decide to go digging. That is just me though, you are free to do whatever you like.


The online site here http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/ had the following to say about "guns store" "Quicken Willmaker" and "online generic trusts"

"This week I have received two trusts from potential clients who sent them in for review that were invalid. Even if ATF approved a Form 1 or Form 4 transfer to these trusts, anyone in possession of the TItle II firearms would be illegally in possession of them. Once person already had 3 items in their possession and 2 more on the way. Both trusts claimed to be gun trusts but were obviously not intended for firearms much less those subject to the NFA and contained many of the traditional language found in a trust designed for managing financial assets.
While in some ways the language seemed to be slightly better than a Quicken trust (except for the fatal flaws that made them defective) they only briefly mentioned the NFA or guns in the trust and gave no guidance based on state or federal restrictions of firearms based on the geography of the transfer or the legal status of the people involved with the trust or whether the beneficiary was legally able to be in possession of the firearms based on the unknown circumstances of the future. While all of this may sound complicated, a real Gun Trust like one provided by a Gun Trust Lawyer® will deal with all of these issues and more.
Our trusts have been reviewed by hundreds of estate planning and firearms lawyers. If you have a "free gun trust", "Gun Store Trust" or trust that you are concerned may not protect your and your family, send it to us and we will review it and let you know what type of problems you may face. Normally we charge for reviewing other trusts, but for the next 30 days we will review them free of charge under the federal laws.
Some common things to be concerned about.
1) I got my trust off the internet
2) your trust references laws of another state
3) your trust is less than 15 pages
4) your trust did not come with a detailed manual on how to make purchases or who can use the items
5) your trust does not contain the Registered trademark Gun Trust Lawyer®"

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

... If you go to a gun range and allow anyone to shoot the weapon and they get caught same thing, they go to jail. However, if they are listed on the trust they can have possesion of the gun at any time weather you are present or not. Seemed like the best thing to do was create a "NFA Trust" and start listing my regulated fireams on it.

I don't know who told you this but it is 100% wrong. If you are there, anyone you want can shoot it. You just can't give it to them then go home.

The ATF isn't going to come snatch your toy away because you let the guy one lane over fire a shot through it. Nor will said guy go to jail. If its yours, its yours, but that doesn't mean you can't let someone shoot it.

 

[CaptMopar]

I never setup a bank account, I just put that the trust had $200 dollars in it. I sent a personal check and both of the ones I've sent in have been approved.

You are correct you don't actually have to set up a bank account. I just like everything looking official. My checks that I send to the BATFE will have the name of the trust on them, waiting for them to arrive. If I decide to sell the gun at somepoint I need an account to deposit the funds from the sale into as well. Its a good idea in my opinion to have an account set up in case they decide to go digging. That is just me though, you are free to do whatever you like.


I did hours of research and investigation on the internet and the following website seemed to have all the answers and lionks I needed to get mine up and running with little or no worries. The same online site here http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/ also had the following to say about "guns store" "Quicken Willmaker" and "online generic trusts"

"This week I have received two trusts from potential clients who sent them in for review that were invalid. Even if ATF approved a Form 1 or Form 4 transfer to these trusts, anyone in possession of the TItle II firearms would be illegally in possession of them. One person already had 3 items in their possession and 2 more on the way.Both trusts claimed to be gun trusts but were obviously not intended for firearms much less those subject to the NFA and contained many of the traditional language found in a trust designed for managing financial assets.
While in some ways the language seemed to be slightly better than a Quicken trust (except for the fatal flaws that made them defective) they only briefly mentioned the NFA or guns in the trust and gave no guidance based on state or federal restrictions of firearms based on the geography of the transfer or the legal status of the people involved with the trust or whether the beneficiary was legally able to be in possession of the firearms based on the unknown circumstances of the future. While all of this may sound complicated, a real Gun Trust like one provided by a Gun Trust Lawyer® will deal with all of these issues and more.

Our trusts have been reviewed by hundreds of estate planning and firearms lawyers. If you have a "free gun trust", "Gun Store Trust" or trust that you are concerned may not protect your and your family, send it to us and we will review it and let you know what type of problems you may face. Normally we charge for reviewing other trusts, but for the next 30 days we will review them free of charge under the federal laws.

Some common things to be concerned about.
1) I got my trust off the internet
2) your trust references laws of another state
3) your trust is less than 15 pages
4) your trust did not come with a detailed manual on how to make purchases or who can use the items
5) your trust does not contain the Registered trademark Gun Trust Lawyer®"

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

There are no known instances of the ATF taking away guns because someones Quicken trust was invalid. guntrustlawyer.com is selling a product. understand that before believing everything they say. A trust does not need to even be NFA specific, it is just an entity that the ATF (for now) allows to own firearms. It also does NOT need to be 15+ pages.

 

[CaptMopar]

I don't know who told you this but it is 100% wrong. If you are there, anyone you want can shoot it. You just can't give it to them then go home.

The ATF isn't going to come snatch your toy away because you let the guy one lane over fire a shot through it. Nor will said guy go to jail. If its yours, its yours, but that doesn't mean you can't let someone shoot it.

You absolutely sure about that? Willing to gamble with your friends and family lives? Not me...[h=1]NFA and Constructive Possession: Myth or Reality?[/h]Many individuals who own National Firearms Act firearms (Machineguns, suppressors, SBSs, SBRs, DDs, and AOWs) are concerned whether other individuals who live in their house can be charged with constructive possession for the NFA firearms. Pursuant to the NFA, only the person who is approved for the transfer/making of NFA firearm by the BATFE may possess the NFA firearm. A person is defined as a natural person, corporation, trust…etc. Hence, where a natural person owns the NFA firearm, only that natural person may possess. In a trust, any trustee or life beneficiary may possess.

The concern typically arises where the owner is a natural person and is worried that his/her spouse, significant other, and/or child could be charged with constructive possession of the NFA firearm. While the determination will always depend on all the circumstances, the general answer is YES.

Constructive Possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and intention at a given time to exercise dominion and control over an object, either directly or through others. US v. Turnbough, 1997 U.S. App. LEXIS 11886, *6. The government may establish constructive possession by demonstrating that the defendant exercised ownership, dominion or control over the premises in which the contraband is concealed. Id.

Thus, if the spouse, significant other, or child does not have the combination to the safe where the NFA firearms are kept, it would be virtually impossible for the prosecutor to show that the spouse, significant other, or child “knowingly has the power.” Moreover, the person would be unable to exercise dominion and control over the NFA firearms because they are locked in the safe.
However, where a spouse, significant other, or child has the combination to the safe, or otherwise can exercise dominion and control over the NFA firearm, the prosecution can charge that individual with constructive possession. In US v. Turnbough, when the police searched the defendant’s home pursuant to a valid search warrant and found a handgun, that did not have a serial number, in the master bedroom, the defendant argued that he could not be found guilty of constructive possession if his live in girlfriend and her child were not charged. While his argument was frivolous, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals declared, “[In] viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to the government, at the least, a reasonable jury could conclude that all three parties exercised dominion and control over the gun. Possession may be either sole or joint.” Id. at *7. Thus, although the prosecutor did not bring a charge of constructive possession against the girlfriend and her child, the Court was amenable to the prosecutor bringing such charges.
While there aren’t any cases of a spouse, significant other, or child being charged with constructive possession, those familiar with the Olofson case (BATFE successfully prosecuted an individual for a malfunctioning firearm in direct contravention to precedent) should recognize that the tide is changing. The absence of such a case does not mean that the BATFE or a zealous prosecutor cannot charge constructive possession and convict based on it. Moreover, the absence of such a case does not mean that a zealous prosecutor hasn’t already threatened charging such an individual unless that person testifies against the individual that the prosecutor really wants behind bars.
So, what do you do to protect yourself and those in your household? If you own the NFA firearms as a natural person, then you, and only you, should have the combination to the safe. However, there are other options. If you want your spouse, significant other, or child over 18 years of age to be able to possess the firearms, a Gun Trust can afford you that flexibility without the concern of constructive possession.

UPDATE
A new constructive possession case has popped up, but it is somewhat different than the above constructive possession scenario. In this case, a gentleman had an H&K SP89 pistol, along with a front grip (which by itself would require the registering of the SP89 as an AOW) but also a stock, which would require that the pistol be registered as a short-barreled rifle. Unfortunately, the gentleman fell on hard times and sought to sell the SP89 with all of his “accessories,” which included the front grip and shoulder stock. Unbeknownst to him, he sold pistol and accessories to an undercover cop. For more info, see my post here.

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

First off let me say I am 100% in favor of people using trusts. It makes my job easier, and is easier on you. However, quoting law firms who sell trusts is not always the best way to get to the answer. How about we go straight to the CFR
§ 5812 Transfers.
(a) Application. A firearm shall not be
transferred unless (1) the transferor of the
firearm has filed with the Secretary a written
application, in duplicate, for the transfer
and registration of the firearm to the
transferee on the application form prescribed
by the Secretary; (2) any tax payable
on the transfer is paid as evidenced
by the proper stamp affixed to the original
application form; (3) the transferee is
identified in the application form in such
manner as the Secretary may by regulations
prescribe, except that, if such person
is an individual, the identification
must include his fingerprints and his photograph;
(4) the transferor of the firearm is
identified in the application form in such
manner as the Secretary may by regulations
prescribe; (5) the firearm is identified
in the application form in such manner as
the Secretary may by regulations prescribe;
and (6) the application form shows
that the Secretary has approved the
transfer and the registration of the firearm
to the transferee. Applications shall be
denied if the transfer, receipt, or possession
of the firearm would place the transferee
in violation of law.


The main word here is transfer. If your lawyer cannot argue successfully that no TRANSFER OF POSSESSION took place while you were standing there letting someone shoot your SBR, then immediately took it back, meaning it never left your sight or surrounding, I think you need a new lawyer. The case you brought up had to do with an illegal gun, not a lawfully owned NFA item. Even if it was "joint possession", the legal owner still possessed it, meaning no transfer took place.

If what you say is true, then every gun range that rents guns is in violation. And we get audited, a lot. IF it was pursuable, it would have been pursued. Especially ranges that rent machine guns.

In my personal experience, I actually asked my IOI ATF representative (the person who audits me, and would bring charges if i did something wrong) if I could let people shoot my cans and my machineguns. The answer is yes, as long as they are not transferred to that person and I am there.
I have also done demos with current and retired FBI, ATF and police officers. I have let them shoot personal guns and cans. No laws were broken.


ETA the definition of Transfer per the CFR
(j) Transfer. The term 'transfer' and
the various derivatives of such word, shall
include selling, assigning, pledging, leasing,
loaning, giving away, or otherwise
disposing of.

 

[integroid]

You absolutely sure about that? Willing to gamble with your friends and family lives? Not me...NFA and Constructive Possession: Myth or Reality?

LOL...you are arguing with someone that does this for a living and has probably done hundreds of them. How many Trusts have you done? 1? I am positive Quiet Riot is correct. Either that or every single Class 3 dealer I have spoken to is misinformed....you know since they will let anyone be a class 3 dealer and all

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

Look i'll be honest. It is not clearly defined. It is certainly not something they are actively enforcing. If you don't want to risk it, get a trust.

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

I'll add another wrinkle to this. I can only buy post sample machineguns to give "demos" with. So am I breaking the law by following it?

 

[Jason F]

....
I did hours of research and investigation on the internet and the following website seemed to have all the answers and lionks I needed to get mine up and running with little or no worries. The same online site here http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/ also had the following to say about "guns store" "Quicken Willmaker" and "online generic trusts"

I'm just wading in to the NFA waters, but that statement there is all I need to know. Sorry, if you didn't even talk to a lawyer, you're ill-informed IMHO. Because yes, those other websites are selling their services & products, so of course they're going to be a bit doomsdayish about any product other than their own.



back to lurking for me now...