Starting an FFL and becoming an SOT

[riflejunky]

I have no idea how the scrutiny of post samples including those from dealers that are shutting down will play out. My guess is a lot of dudes who were building up piles of post samples have seen what has been going with ATF and are now closing down their "FFL business" and selling the guns off while they still have value other than the value as a parts kit.
I will attach a link to the most recent guidance letter on post samples from ATF. My reading of the letter says to me that the guns are now set to draw more scrutiny. It also says that mere possession of the post samples unless they are being held on behalf of a Government entity is a violation. Given the Presidents anti gun politics and the fact that he has direct input into the actions of ATF through his new director I personally would be very hesitant to go out and buy a bunch of post samples in order to rent out to the public. You might not have a problem with the transfer but at some time in the future you might be at risk from the mere possession of the guns even though you are licensed to deal in said guns.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-jan-2023-open-letter-machinegun-dealer-sales-sample-letters/download?fbclid=IwAR0LHRyARIp1raDRp_YVBmGV0t68MXyihgujFY03wTufSxcsmzCILnUMBRA

On a more positive note if you did have a range suitable for machine-guns and grenade launchers you should think of hosting machine gun shoots possibly coinciding with CMP events. I would come to something like that and bring my own guns.

 

[rinfanti]

Speaking from Experience....

You are going to need a lot of land with a large buffer around it. One stray bullet landing in someones yard and you are done for.

Most new outdoor ranges are in the 200 to 300 acre range. Add explosives and you will want to up that to 600+

Post samples are being looked at hard and not a lot are being approved even with law letters. You are going to have to build your own. or buy them form an SOT going tou of business. Those are still running 3 to 6 months right now.

Your insurance is going to be 6 figures a year.

Think real hard about this.

 

[RandomUsername69]

Are you planning on using post samples for your rental guns? Because it seems like a lot of financial layout to start a business that is skirting the very edge of legality in regards to legit uses of post samples. Post samples are allowed only for the purpose of sales to law enforcement according to the NFA handbook. I realize there are many people doing this around the country but it also seems from reports I have read that the ATF has been scrutinizing people over post samples. Currently the majority of those scrutinized dealt with the validity of their law letters.

I don’t plan on doing anything specific before asking questions and figuring just whatu I can do in the eyes of the law.

I have no idea how the scrutiny of post samples including those from dealers that are shutting down will play out. My guess is a lot of dudes who were building up piles of post samples have seen what has been going with ATF and are now closing down their "FFL business" and selling the guns off while they still have value other than the value as a parts kit.
I will attach a link to the most recent guidance letter on post samples from ATF. My reading of the letter says to me that the guns are now set to draw more scrutiny. It also says that mere possession of the post samples unless they are being held on behalf of a Government entity is a violation. Given the Presidents anti gun politics and the fact that he has direct input into the actions of ATF through his new director I personally would be very hesitant to go out and buy a bunch of post samples in order to rent out to the public. You might not have a problem with the transfer but at some time in the future you might be at risk from the mere possession of the guns even though you are licensed to deal in said guns.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-jan-2023-open-letter-machinegun-dealer-sales-sample-letters/download?fbclid=IwAR0LHRyARIp1raDRp_YVBmGV0t68MXyihgujFY03wTufSxcsmzCILnUMBRA

On a more positive note if you did have a range suitable for machine-guns and grenade launchers you should think of hosting machine gun shoots possibly coinciding with CMP events. I would come to something like that and bring my own guns.

But if you have a good law letter from the local sheriff saying that he wants to demo let’s say a full auto apc9. And he ends up not liking it and not going thru with the purchase the atf doesn’t expect you to send the gun back do they? I mean surely if the law letter is legit and this hypothetical would go down what would be the issue with renting it out after they have completed their demo?

 

[rinfanti]

The problem is many Law Letters are not being approved now less they are for very generic weapons. forget about belt feds or anything from WWII or Korea.

 

[riflejunky]

I don’t plan on doing anything specific before asking questions and figuring just whatu I can do in the eyes of the law.

But if you have a good law letter from the local sheriff saying that he wants to demo let’s say a full auto apc9. And he ends up not liking it and not going thru with the purchase the atf doesn’t expect you to send the gun back do they? I mean surely if the law letter is legit and this hypothetical would go down what would be the issue with renting it out after they have completed their demo?

I can't answer your question but I would be suspect of the following from the letter.

submitting a law letter when the licensee knows the government entity has no interest in the machinegun requested. Violations of 18 U.S.C. 922(o) are subject to a fine, imprisonment for up to ten years, or both. See 18 U.S.C. 924(a)(2).

I only know one guy personally that drew the scrutiny of the ATF over an NFA violation and he fought them over it. That was in 2013. He is scheduled to be released from the federal correctional facility in Edgfield South Carolina in 142 days.

I am just saying I would tread lightly

 

[thevalueman]

I understand that Pine Log WMA might be for sale....

 

[RandomUsername69]

I can't answer your question but I would be suspect of the following from the letter.

submitting a law letter when the licensee knows the government entity has no interest in the machinegun requested. Violations of 18 U.S.C. 922(o) are subject to a fine, imprisonment for up to ten years, or both. See 18 U.S.C. 924(a)(2).

I only know one guy personally that drew the scrutiny of the ATF over an NFA violation and he fought them over it. That was in 2013. He is scheduled to be released from the federal correctional facility in Edgfield South Carolina in 142 days.

I am just saying I would tread lightly

If you obtain a law letter how are you supposed to know they aren’t gonna buy it? They wrote a letter stating their intent to buy it. Unless they had a recording of the guy talking with the author of his letter saying he never intended on buying it I just don’t see how that would even hold up. It makes no sense

 

[coolformula]

I know a lot of people think this would do good, but most people won’t have the capital to make this work. Insurance , taxes, paying employees etc.

Invest in your current retirement instead of buying 300-600k you don’t have . That’s my .02 cents.

Good luck

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

1-- if ATF is starting to crack down on post 1986 dealer samples being rented out at shooting ranges, I have to ask:

why couldn't they crack down even further in the future and forbid all machine guns (even transferable pre-86 registered ones) from being possessed by persons who are not the registered owner, or an agent of the corporation that owns them, or a trustee of the trust that owns them?

Seems to me the law as passed by Congress is already against us and ATF is just choosing to look the other way because historically it hasn't been a problem. But if we make it a problem or some anti-gun zealot in the White House decides to see it as a problem, that whole industry of renting machine guns at gun ranges could be done.
(Ditto for 'conjugal visits' with the NFA items you've paid for and are held at your local gun shop & range pending your ATF form 4 approval & stamp)

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

2-- The "letter of intent" by a L.E. agency could be a work of fiction and that could be proven using circumstantial evidence. You don't need direct evidence to convict people in court; circumstantial evidence is enough if the circumstances are such that there is no reasonable conclusion to draw but the defendant's guilt.

I don't mean The law letter would be a forgery --what I mean is that it could be written by some cooperative law-enforcement agency head to do you a favor, or maybe do himself a favor by earning the right to be a regular guest at your range and shoot those machine guns, but under the circumstances he wasn't going to buy those machine guns or any other machine guns in the foreseeable future, and he never has purchased any machine guns from you ...and yet he keeps sending you these letters of interest that you ask for....