Is a gun trust worth the money

[BHPSteel]

As of July 2016, Rule 41F was introduded which required tha:

... all “responsible persons” associated with a gun trust are required to submit FBI fingerprint cards and passport-type photos, as well as notify the chief law enforcement officer in their jurisdiction that the gun trust is purchasing or manufacturing an NFA firearm.

So, as I undertstand it, that was the point where trusts became more onerous:

Background Checks for Responsible Persons (Final Rule 41F)

Note that this applies specifically but not solely to the event where "receiving (sic) an NFA firearm in the name of a trust or other legal entity as the transferee on a Form 4, or Form 5".

 

[WC1911guy]

I believe that any amendments made to your Trust must also be submitted to the ATF for them to have the most recent version on file. Not doing so is also a violation. I don't have time to look it up but I seem to remember something about that.

As far as private owner verses Trust, I used a Trust because if my wife were to grab my SBR or rifle with a suppressor on it and shoot a home invader and I wasn't home would she be charged for using the NFA item and I'm not present and she's not the owner or on the Trust? Maybe, so I wasn't willing to risk it.

 

[tomtomgt356]

I believe that any amendments made to your Trust must also be submitted to the ATF for them to have the most recent version on file. Not doing so is also a violation. I don't have time to look it up but I seem to remember something about that.

From the ATF website, PDF titled "GENERAL 41F QUESTION &ANSWERS" https://www.atf.gov/file/107196/download

Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same requirements?
A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance.

Of course the ATF would NeVeR change their stance on something like this...

 

[WC1911guy]

From the ATF website, PDF titled "GENERAL 41F QUESTION &ANSWERS" https://www.atf.gov/file/107196/download

Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same requirements?
A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance.

Of course the ATF would NeVeR change their stance on something like this...

Always subject to change or be interpreted to support a narrative for prosecution by whichever Federal jackhole is trying to move up the political ladder.

 

[Molon Labe]

From the ATF website, PDF titled "GENERAL 41F QUESTION &ANSWERS" https://www.atf.gov/file/107196/download

Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same requirements?
A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance.

Of course the ATF would NeVeR change their stance on something like this...

I reckon that's why I was instructed to wait until after stamped recv'd before I executed the amendments.

 

[spencer60]

You literally file an amendment form with the form 1/4 and it clearly states the intent in the amendment and ATF has signed off each time , no fraud no hiding intent legal and approved that’s literally the point of a trust it’s a living document

So you are filing the amendment form with the ATF showing that responsible people were added and then removed each time a new item was added?

As you say, it's a living document but the ATF has a long history of reversing decisions under political pressure. I could see that coming back to haunt.

 

[rumrunner55]

So you are filing the amendment form with the ATF showing that responsible people were added and then removed each time a new item was added?

As you say, it's a living document but the ATF has a long history of reversing decisions under political pressure. I could see that coming back to haunt.

Yes I file amendment form with my forms and ATF has no problem

 

[Construct More Pylons]

That just sucks and is pure lazy. All your contact info is on the stamp.

QR is good. To good. They always manage to separate me from my money. Go in for an adapter or something end up with buying a suppressor.

Construct More Pylons , Amir is also very good and knowledgeable and he's also a gun guy, not just a dealer.

My local dealer seems to get better every time I do a transfer but have neither suppressor knowledgeable or accessories.

<3

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

The problem is *NOT* in ATF knowing that you exercised your power to take a person or even a few people off your trust.

The issue is you putting them right back on as soon as ATF approved that build or transfer.

If you only send them a copy of your trust which says on page one
"...my trustees are Able, Baker Charlie, and Delta"

but on page 4 it says
"I hearby modify my trust by removing Baker, Charlie, and Delta."

ATF would not necessarily know that you're putting those three people immediately back in as co-trustees as soon as they approve you.

ATF would not know you've done this before on all your other builds or transfers they've approved in the past.

Not unless you send them the latest copy of your trust with the amendment adding those three people back in as trustees after your transfer is approved. (Which nobody does because there's no law or rule that says you have to.)

But don't mistake ATF saying "it's OK to take somebody off your trust"
as approval for

the practice of routinely taking somebody off your trust just long enough to trick the ATF into thinking they're not a "responsible person" who will possess that weapon, and then you add them right back on!

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

Ultimately, The bottom line is that if enough people f*^% around this way and try to manipulate the system by exploding what they see as loopholes in it,

ATF will crack down and close the loopholes just like they've done for bump stocks, 95% complete silencer kits called solvent traps,
80% complete ghost guns,
and who knows what else.

And maybe ATF's closing of the loophole will be more burdensome than we imagine. Maybe they'll beg Congress for much tighter restrictions on NFA weapons perhaps involving home visits from ATF agents or putting tracking chips like Apple ID tags on NFA weapons so the feds can monitor them remotely.

Until NFA Devices are considered the kind of arms that the second amendment applies to you don't have any constitutional right to these things it's merely a statutory right that exists at the whim of Congress and could be taken away at any time. Y'all ever heard the expression


"F**** around and find out!"