Should you get training?

[shaneadams90]

For me its really simple...I carry daily and HOPE to never use it.....but should I ever have too I want to ensure that I have the highest probability possible to come out of the fight on the winning side....so I train.....often.....I don't shoot....I train....I am NOT a commando/operator/Special Task force guy. I have no LEO or military background...

while I have grown up shooting, It was during a very inopportune moment that I realized the training I needed I did NOT have....and years of shooting tin cans, paper targets, and furry critters did not help me......

I do NOT think that training should be mandated by the government...they have a great way of complicating and screwing up the simplest things...but I feel that a responsible gun owner, especially one that EDCs, would not have to be goaded into training.....

all the best.
shane


Plus its a boat load of fun....

 

[Retread]

CQB27,
What's your handle mean. I get the CQB, but the only 27 MOS I know is a legal clerk?
(FWIW, mine is an old Navy term for an OSVET. I was Navy 8404 corpsman, Army 31 commo.)

 

[CQB27]

CQB27,
What's your handle mean. I get the CQB, but the only 27 MOS I know is a legal clerk?
(FWIW, mine is an old Navy term for an OSVET. I was Navy 8404 corpsman, Army 31 commo.)

Sent you a PM

 

[HeadHunter]

Where do the trainers go to get trained?
Honest question.

This is a list I put together about 10 years ago on another forum. Since then, I continue to take at least two classes a year.

Instructors I have trained with: (classes/hours)
Farnam (6/120), Rogers (5/250), Stanford (4/16), Silverman (4/100), McCann (1/20), Ayoob (1/40), Armstrong (1/16), Block (3/10), Langley (1/16), Burkett (1/2), Insights (6/64), Stringer (1/6), Hackathorn (3/60), Yeager (1/20), Givens (3/60), Higginbotham (1/8), Mid-South (2/50), Benedict (2/8), Nevada Pistol Academy (1/8), NRA (4/40), Crews (1/16), Cirillo (1/4), Harrington (1/6)

Having trained with a number of instructors, I thought I would relate the type of information/skills of value I learned and retained from training with them:

Well Known Trainers
John Farnam (6/120) http://www.defense-training.com
Avoidance, de-selection, deterrence, stealth existence, living with guns, interaction with authorities, interaction with suspects, post-incident planning, trigger reset.
Favorite quotes: “the best way to win a gunfight is to not be there”, “you are innocent until indigent.”

Bill Rogers (5/250) www.rogers-shooting-school.com
Reactive shooting, reflexive gunhandling, high standards of excellence, defensive positioning, biofeedback training.
Favorite quotes: “you can’t point shoot these targets, it just won’t happen”, “a lot of people get killed by thinking ‘I’ll figure it out when I get there’ and when they get there it’s too late to figure it out.”

Andy Stanford (4/16) www.optionsforpersonalsecurity.com
Shooting from unorthodox positions, dot training, cadence shooting, biomechanics of shooting, keeping an open mind, analyzing the situation.
Favorite quote: “Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.”

Fair disclosure: I have an association with the above three trainers.

Insights – Greg Hamilton/John Holschen (6/64) www.insightstraining.com
High speed marksmanship and weapons manipulation, dot training, cadence shooting, post-training practice regimen, folding knife, weapons retention and disarming, terrorist strategy, characteristics, and weaknesses.
Favorite quotes: “don’t take my word for it, you have to figure out if it makes sense for you”, “Kill one of them, get his weapon, kill his partner, then work your way out” [strategy for dealing with a terrorist seizure of a self defense free zone you are in], “Some situations aren’t survivable, get over it and take as many with you as you can.”

Ken Hackathorn (3/60)
Weapons manipulation, shooting while moving, self evaluation, engaging multiple assailants, stress management, trigger reset, close quarters shooting.
Favorite quotes: “you won’t do anything under stress that you don’t unconsciously know you’ll do well”, “this is about you and figuring out where you are at.”

Mid-South – Ross Sanders/Blackie Blackburn (2/50) www.weaponstraining.com
High speed marksmanship and weapons manipulation, dot training, cadence shooting, biofeedback training, reflexive gunhandling, post-training practice regimen.
Favorite quotes: “you [police chief] teach them [officers] when to shoot, we’ll teach them how to shoot”, “you spanked this course.”

NRA (4/40) http://www.nrahq.org/education/train...ictraining.asp
Best way to deal with complete novices. Organization and materials. Equivocation and tentativeness (I don’t mean that in a disparaging way). Being non-intimidating.
Favorite quotes: “Do not use the term weapon in this course. Weapon has a negative connotation”, “Blank targets…are the only targets permitted for use in the NRA Personal Protection Course. Realistic human targets are specifically prohibited.”

Massad Ayoob (1/40) http://www.ayoob.com
Legal aspects of self defense, survival priorities, pre-incident planning, interaction with suspects.
No quotes: I took LFI-I a long time ago.

Jim Cirillo (1/4)
Unsighted shooting, terminal ballistics, using cover, marksmanship importance.
Favorite quote: “The most effective weapon we had on the stakeout squad was the M1 Carbine with hollowpoint ammunition; it worked better than a shotgun with slugs.” Most of his quotes are not printable due to extensive and creative profanity.

Kelly McCann (1/20) www.cruciblesecurity.com
Mindset/awareness tools and techniques, disengagement, the value of multimedia instruction, busy hands drills, bridge weapons, countering multiple assailants.
Favorite quotes: “Unarmed combat is only to buy me time to get a weapon [LTL or firearm]”, “what about good old American stompin’ the piss out of him”

 

[HeadHunter]

It's a topic for sure.

Interesting how some folks who are against "mandatory training requirement for a carry license" don't speak up about mandatory training / testing for driver's license. It's just one analogy.

Just witness some of the dipsh*ts at almost any gun range on a Saturday ... some of those who think no training should be required may change their opinion after watching some of the antics.

Here's the issue I have with mandatory training to own a firearm. When I worked out the numbers, if the entire training base (i.e., everyone who is certified to conduct training for private citizens and facilities for livefire training) was conducting training at full capacity, they could train somewhere between 2-3% of the gunowners in this country each year. That's one reason why gun ownership rates in places like MA. are low, the training base just isn't available.

It's similar to the argument that people should practice shooting on the move and drawing from a holster. When you look at the numbers for Atlanta, only 1 gun owner out of approximately 1000 has access to a facility that permits those activities.

When the government starts talking about mandatory this and that, it seldoms considers the resource cost to accomplish it. Look at the way the Air Marshal program changed after 9/11. Before that, its level of firearms proficiency was clearly the highest of any Federal Agency. When the Service was dramatically expanded, the standards had to be drastically watered down to make the numbers. Now, they're no different from any other agency. The California Highway Patrol went through the same issue in the late 60's when it doubled in size over a period of four years. This directly led to the Newhall Massacre. Of the four Patrolmen who were killed, none were over 24 years old. The most experienced of them, the default FTO, had been with the Patrol for only 2.5 years.

 

[Indirect Fire]

When the government starts talking about mandatory this and that, it seldom considers the resource cost to accomplish it. Look at the way the Air Marshal program changed after 9/11. Before that, its level of firearms proficiency was clearly the highest of any Federal Agency. When the Service was dramatically expanded, the standards had to be drastically watered down to make the numbers. Now, they're no different from any other agency.

I have shot just about every fed agencies qualification (and a bunch of states mostly for fun) course at one time or another and the original Air Marshal programs was the only one I would consider a remotely a challenge. Short and sweet it was. Shame they did what they did.

 

[HeadHunter]

I have shot just about every fed agencies qualification (and a bunch of states) course at one time or another and the original Air Marshal programs was the only one I would consider a remotely a challenge. Short and sweet it was. Shame they did what they did.

But that's what happens in any rapid expansion. I dealt with training base issues extensively in the Army. It's a real challenge just to get large numbers of people up to the point of not being dangerous to those around them. Getting them proficient is another level or two past that. In most cases, the resources will never be there. And the Pareto Principle will always rear its ugly head; 80% of people are simply not capable of ever being really proficient. When the input numbers are small, selection for the 20% who can become proficient is possible. As the input numbers grow, there's no way to avoid letting part of the 80% in.

Realistically speaking, at least 50 - 75 % of people who have drivers licenses shouldn't be allowed to drive or should only be allowed to on a limited basis. As long as conditions are optimal and they remain focused, they can manipulate a two ton death machine in a straight line. As conditions deteriorate, such as traffic, weather, etc., or when they lose focus on the task, they become dangerous to other vehicles and drivers around them. And they are responsible for the operation of a two ton death machine that makes a gun look like a dandelion by comparison. Where's the logic in that?

 

[TattooedGunner]

OK guys: Instead of hypothesizing, why not get together with a couple dummy knives, coat them in chalk, and spar? See if your technics work in the real world?

That sounds like fun. Force on force is absolutely on my list of classes to take.

 

[Mjölnir-Inc.]

I have a series of classes that I offer called 'Dynamic Skill-Building.' These aren't the typical force-on-force courses. They each build off of one another in progression and help to teach how to 'think and react' in disruptive environments. Whether you're a small business owner or SWAT member, these classes range from learning how to 'read' an environment and people and also heuristics (how to predict what might happen and how to react) and progress to more strenuous classes that involve active-shooter, hostage situations and violent encounters. The great thing is these courses will stress/teach the students to 'do something' rather than expect the instructor to rescue them from the situation at hand.

I recently provided guest instruction for Monte at Protective Measures and introduced the class to this methodology. The feedback was great and I'm hoping to do some of these classes specifically.

It's easy to teach someone how to shoot...but there aren't many courses that teach how to think/react. This is what will save your life and I encourage anyone to take such a class.

'Go Over, Not Around...'Cuz it's Windy at the Tip.'

 

[Retread]

$$$$$How much?$$$$$

But you silhouette like hell when you go over the top, and that wind may be rounds zinging by.