NFALawyers Initial Review of 41P

[heavyd]

Thank you H heavyd

A group on Facebook I'm a member of started discussing this last night and one guy asked for a good trust lawyer. I naturally linked your site.

Couple of questions I didn't see asked:
1) Now that fingerprints are required, can any agency do these or is there something specifiying that they have to be done in the county/ city you reside in?
2) When notifying the CLEO, is there a standard that has to be met such as a certified letter?

Hey, I certainly appreciate the link.

Anyone can take fingerprints, even you. The ATF just says "someone properly equipped to take them"

At the moment, there is not a standard with regard to notifying your CLEO. Simply drop a letter in the mail. A certified letter would be a good idea, but not necessary.

 

[heavyd]

Just saw this on another forum:

If the applicant entity has had an application approved as a maker or transferee within
the preceding 24 months, and there has been no change to the documentation previously
provided, the entity may provide a certification that the information has not been changed since
the prior approval and shall identify the application for which the documentation had been
submitted by form number, serial number, and date approved.

Am I correct in interpreting this to say that you only have to go through the pictures and fingerprinting once every 2 years and as long as nothing has changed you can simply provide certification (maybe some form or affidavit to sign) saying such you DO NOT have to get fingerprinted and submit photographs for each new purchase?

Your interpretation is correct, based on the face of the reg. As with everything related to new regulations, we'll see how things shake down after July 1st.

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

That's a really fine line to walk-- giving a co-trustee enough power and responsibility that he or she actually is a trustee and can legally perform the obligations of safeguarding the Trust's property, but not giving that person such power and control over the items that he or she becomes a "responsible person" under this new federal background check scheme. I think the prevailing view among most trusts and estates attorneys, and judges, will be that any and all trustees of an NFA trust will always have enough power and authority to be considered responsible persons. If the Trust gives them the power to possess, store, transport, and shoot that NFA weapon, that person is by definition a person responsible for the weapon who needs to be background-checked.
Another question will be how ATF will react to attempts to write-up the role of Trustee to exclude him or her from being a "responsible person." Will ATF review the trust documents themselves and reject them? Or will ATF review the trust documents and demand that all named Trustees submit fingerprints and photos? Or will ATF not even notice, or care, because they're busy and their examiners are overworked already?

 

[N Cochran]

That's a really fine line to walk-- giving a co-trustee enough power and responsibility that he or she actually is a trustee and can legally perform the obligations of safeguarding the Trust's property, but not giving that person such power and control over the items that he or she becomes a "responsible person" under this new federal background check scheme. I think the prevailing view among most trusts and estates attorneys, and judges, will be that any and all trustees of an NFA trust will always have enough power and authority to be considered responsible persons. If the Trust gives them the power to possess, store, transport, and shoot that NFA weapon, that person is by definition a person responsible for the weapon who needs to be background-checked.
Another question will be how ATF will react to attempts to write-up the role of Trustee to exclude him or her from being a "responsible person." Will ATF review the trust documents themselves and reject them? Or will ATF review the trust documents and demand that all named Trustees submit fingerprints and photos? Or will ATF not even notice, or care, because they're busy and their examiners are overworked already?

I shared similar concerns expressed in an earlier post on this thread. That is a good point though....will the examiner even care. I think so though given the attention this will get.

 

[Usmc6174]

I had no clue the atf had started contracting their examiner jobs out. The examiner that processed my last form 4 was from team rolling bay.....so maybe it will take a while to catch on

 

[albatros43]

That's a really fine line to walk-- giving a co-trustee enough power and responsibility that he or she actually is a trustee and can legally perform the obligations of safeguarding the Trust's property, but not giving that person such power and control over the items that he or she becomes a "responsible person" under this new federal background check scheme. I think the prevailing view among most trusts and estates attorneys, and judges, will be that any and all trustees of an NFA trust will always have enough power and authority to be considered responsible persons. If the Trust gives them the power to possess, store, transport, and shoot that NFA weapon, that person is by definition a person responsible for the weapon who needs to be background-checked.
Another question will be how ATF will react to attempts to write-up the role of Trustee to exclude him or her from being a "responsible person." Will ATF review the trust documents themselves and reject them? Or will ATF review the trust documents and demand that all named Trustees submit fingerprints and photos? Or will ATF not even notice, or care, because they're busy and their examiners are overworked already?

And similarly, does this have to be done EVERY time an NFA item is purchased? What is the point of submitting your photo and fingerprints each time?

 

[heavyd]

And similarly, does this have to be done EVERY time an NFA item is purchased? What is the point of submitting your photo and fingerprints each time?

It does not appear as though these documents are required for every purchase, if nothing in your trust has changed within the preceding 24 months. For example, if you purchased an NFA weapon 22 months ago and your trust remains the same today, you would not be required to submit pictures and fingerprints.

 

[albatros43]

It does not appear as though these documents are required for every purchase, if nothing in your trust has changed within the preceding 24 months. For example, if you purchased an NFA weapon 22 months ago and your trust remains the same today, you would not be required to submit pictures and fingerprints.

Well, that would be good news. But it appears that at least all responsible person(s) would need to submit this information at least once when this is implemented?

 

[Lazarus]

And similarly, does this have to be done EVERY time an NFA item is purchased? What is the point of submitting your photo and fingerprints each time?

It does not appear as though these documents are required for every purchase, if nothing in your trust has changed within the preceding 24 months. For example, if you purchased an NFA weapon 22 months ago and your trust remains the same today, you would not be required to submit pictures and fingerprints.

That was my conclusion to it as well. It doesnt make sense to have to do that.

 

[NWSharpshooter]

Ok, here is my question. Let's say a year from now I buy a new can. I buy it on a trust with myself listed as the grantor, and my father listed as a trustee. We submit finger prints and photographs for the two of us and we get approved. 3 months after getting the stamp, I get married and add my new wife to the trust as a trustee. Do I need to then submit finger prints and photographs for her since she will be on a trust that had an approval after the new regulations went into effect?

I know I would need to for her for future purchases, but what about purchases made after the rule change went into effect, but before she was a trustee?


I am sure you can see what I am getting at here. In other words, what would stop someone from forming a new trust with only themselves listed as a responsible party, getting approved for an NFA item, and then adding 20 friends as trustees after the stamp is obtained.

H heavyd
@Cobalt 60
N Cochran
GAgunLAWbooklet